so i’m going to do that thing where i step on my little stepstool on tumblr and ask if there’s anyone around who wants to infodump with me and talk abt these pieces of media????… please, i cannot focus on anything but the weird amalgam of james fitzjames, horatio hornblower and aubrey/maturin brainworms i have acquired
Hello! There is a very merry Age of Sail fandom here
Please share any and all Aubrey/Maturin brainworms in this direction 🙏
Friend. I would cheerfully infodump about any of this with you.
Gooood do I want to just talk about any of this at extreme length
not the cougar i thought I’d attract but I’ll take it
My friend is doing fieldwork in Costa Rica and she informed me that if they want herbivores to stay out on an area for research, they spray Obsession around the area and I thought it was hilarious and made an incredibly specific niche meme that I never thought I’d be able to post
ok so after having read a few fics in the silmarillion fandom for the first time in literally years…. I remember now why I could only very rarely find fic I liked. it’s the language.
there’s always the danger when you’re writing fic for something where the author has such a distinctive voice: you can either try to emulate it - and potentially fail - or not bother, and potentially sound odd and anachronistic. I get it! it’s hard!
but. guys.
I mean this gently. but so much fic attempting to copy some hint of tolkien’s style fails so very miserably. so. so badly. you can use your own voice - that’s absolutely fine, and often indeed the wiser choice - but if you do choose to try and sound like tolkien….here is a post tailor made for you.
first of all, let’s look at the difference. why does this -
But Annatar paid heed most of all to their lord.
sound more tolkien-y than this -
To their lord the most ardent of his attentions were given.
?
(the second is a real sentence from a fic. the first is one I have ‘tolkienised’ myself.)
*deep breath*
tolkien was VERY aware of the provenance of certain words and has characters talking in VERY distinct registers at different times for specific purposes. and different styles of speech and word order and language (french/latinate vocabulary versus old English/germanic vocabulary). any unsuccessful attempt is thus extra jarring, because language isn’t only a signifier for specific social groups in-universe - he also uses it at the level of the text.
and yes maybe I’m extra salty about this because I’m a linguist and have Actually Studied the history of English as well as old English and an EXTENSIVE amount of comparative germanic languages…but here goes.
to highlight the difference in how tolkien uses different words from different sources, I’m going to compare the difference for example between the language used in the lament for the rohirrim vs the song of eärendil
Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
VS
In panoply of ancient kings, in chainéd rings he armoured him; his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him; his bow was made of dragon-horn, his arrows shorn of ebony; of silver was his habergeon, his scabbard of chalcedony; his sword of steel was valiant, of adamant his helmet tall, an eagle-plume upon his crest, upon his breast an emerald.
maybe not the best comparison because significant parts of the latter also exhibit a) very germanic vocabulary ‘to ward all wounds and harm from him’ and b) lots of fun alliteration / stress / metre / cool half-rhyme/assonance stuff and c) VERY germanic syntax ‘he armoured him’ where ‘him’ = ‘himself’ - but compare the words for talking about armour, for example.
when tolkien uses excessively germanic old-english-y things he does so deliberately. when he uses excessively middle english french chivalric language he does so deliberately.
he’s making a point. do you think that people really spoke like that when he was writing the books? compare the language merry and pippin use to that in the oath of fëanor! he is aware of the effect different words have, and the power language holds. if he uses a word like puissance, it’s going to be used to deliberate effect, because the majority of the REALLY archaic vocabulary in his works is germanic, not latinate. (and I’m not talking first age, I’m talking…early stuff, things like the story of kullervo, which uses a different ridiculously archaic word for ‘fence’ or ‘glade’ every single fucking page and is written with syntax that hasn’t been used for hundreds of years). not latinate. it’s not french. it’s GERMANIC.
and this is difficult because it goes against everything most of us are used to in daily life. the majority of most ‘higher’ vocabulary came from the dual sources of the liturgical (latin) and the socially superior (norman french). to this day we can find many examples of ‘simple’ vocabulary like hand or tooth and more specialised, more formal vocabulary - like the equivalent manual or dentist. and of course tolkien uses french and latinate words like the rest of us - it’s impossible not to. there are different levels of loanwords, and power reads far more naturally than puissance.
but tolkien chooses often instead to use might.
we’re..less familiar with this. we are! there’s no question about it. every book or article we read is stuffed full of french and latinate stuff. so I think what people aim for is like…Vaguely Old-Worldly. but the problem is they don’t think about what that means. it doesn’t mean the same for tolkien as other writers. he isn’t chaucer. he isn’t shakespeare. he can and he does wield germanic vocabulary for incredibly specific, often archaic purposes. most fic writers will struggle with that.
similarly important and very related: one of the things that marks Tolkien’s writing as so spectacular is his use, at times, of INCREDIBLY SIMPLE narration. he can and does do otherwise, but SO much of his writing has this clarity to it. a simplicity. and this is deliberately stylistic too! look at this passage when théoden leads his armies into battle:
And darkness was removed and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them
this and, and, and…is a very common structure in old oral epic: a lot of epics would start every new line with and. it’s simple, but incredibly powerful: and terror took them, and they fled, and died. isn’t that enough? doesn’t that say everything? terror took them, and they fled, and died. what more is there?
another thing is sentence structure. you guys. my dudes. once again, much of tolkien’s sentence structure is far simpler than you think. I don’t mean all of it - think again of the oath of fëanor - but most of it really is quite simple. what makes it ‘hard’ and ‘confusing’ is similarly its germanic-ness: structures like yet naught was seen or to the mountains they had fled feel archaic to us, but all they are is ever so slightly more germanic than we are used to. which in turn is not the same thing as complex - as all readers of modern day German with its love of 12-comma sentences and paragraphs spanning more than one page know.
look at this description:
All about them were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress, and other kinds unknown in the Shire, with wide glades among them; and everywhere there was a wealth of sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. The long journey from Rivendell had brought them far south of their own land, but not until now in this more sheltered region had the hobbits felt the change of clime. Here Spring was already busy about them: fronds pierced moss and mould, larches were green-fingered, small flowers opening in the turf, birds were singing.
yes, it’s long. yes, there’s a lot going on. but look at the structure. if you simplify it it’s something like there were trees; and there were shrubs. the journey brought them south, but not until now had they felt the change of clime. here spring was busy; plants were X, and birds were Y.
this is literally just coordination - the most basic of structures. the not until now part is the sort of thing that throws people off, because it’s not a structure we’re so used to seeing. but this is not a complex sentence structure, it’s just ordered a bit different.
with all that in mind, I want to revisit quickly a few of the sentences to give a proper example of what I mean. here are some parts - just a few examples - of what bugs me about much fic
But where ordinarily such words would have stung, they would have seemed barbed and venomous and Celebrimbor would have replied with acrimony in kind, …
One subtle curl of puissance and he could have this elf lord on his knees.
To their lord the most ardent of his attentions were given, and often he could be found at Celebrimbor’s side if he was not otherwise occupied. Though at first they fenced about each other, their conversations thrust and parried as do all fledgling friendships forged in uneasy times, as the days rolled by a true sense of camaraderie began to unfurl between them.
I’m not talking about the quality of the writing, let others judge that - I’m talking SOLELY about the types of words used. notice anything about the words I’ve bolded? yeah. those are all latinate/french.
let me rewrite a few of these sentences. I’m Not Saying look I can write better but guys. if you are trying to write Like That then…take a few of the tips above, and it might just sound less anachronistic.
Such words from another would sting; but Celebrimbor’s answer would come swift and sharp.
But Annatar paid heed most of all to their lord. Often they walked together through the great forges of Eregion, and took delight in each other’s wit.
As the days passed the friendship between the two men grew.
once again. I’m not saying these are Better Writing. but they exhibit the principles I talked about.
which are:
1) utilise words that stand out to the modern reader, yes, but for specific purpose and effect. if you’re going to use puissance, recognise that it stands out and is oddly formal, and use it in an appropriate context. where you don’t want that effect, use something more neutral (power or might)
2) archaic words are germanic more often than latinate/french. obscure latinate/french vocabulary, as above, is used for very specific purposes.
3) simple narration, simple sentence structure and simple vocabulary. write with clarity. write as if it’s meant to be read aloud. look at the landscape description above; it’s measured, and well-balanced. there’s no need for purple prose.
4) germanic sentence structure - yes! very complex sentence structure - no. look at the sentence you wish that I had gone in his stead or he paid heed most of all to their lord. the separation of those two elements - and therefore greater flexibility - is more representative of an older stage of the language. more archaic can mean ‘sentence with twenty clauses’, but it usually doesn’t. not here.
5) pay attention to the conventions of epic and oral story-telling. you can start sentences with ‘and’ and ‘but’ more than your english teacher probably allowed.
6) where are your characters from? if you are trying to use regional language or slang - do your research. the hobbits use a lot of West Country Somerset / Wiltshire language, for example
….
thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Puissance is absolutley the wrong word there, might is what is needed. It’s hard to express what the difference it - don’t they both mean power? - but it’s a real difference, and this post is a marvellous resource in explaining why.
From an unsent draft of a letter in response to criticism of ‘archaism’ in the prose style of The Lord of the Rings:
But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things
said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. Of course, not
being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works
in the ancient and ‘middle’ idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so
that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what
comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that. But take an example from the
chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii,
“The King of the Golden Hall’. ‘Nay, Gandalf!’ said the King. ‘You do not
know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to
fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.’
This is a fair sample — moderated or
watered archaism. Using only words that still are used or known to the
educated, the King would really have said: ‘Nay, thou (n’)wost not thine own skill in healing.
It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall …’ etc. I know well
enough what a modern would say. ‘Not at all my dear G. You don’t know your own
skill as a doctor. Things aren’t going to be like that. I shall go to the war
in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties’ — and then what?
Theoden would certainly think, and probably say ‘thus shall I sleep better’!
But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have ‘I
shall lie easier in my grave’, or ‘I should sleep sounder in my grave like that
rather than if I stayed at home’ – if you like. But there would be an
insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in
a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference
to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archaism of expression
on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual ‘archaic’ English
that I have used.
…I can see no more reason for not using the
much terser and more vivid ancient style, than for changing the obsolete
weapons, helms, shields, hauberks into modern uniforms.
‘Helms too they chose’ is archaic. Some
(wrongly) class it as an ‘inversion’, since normal order is 'They also chose
helmets’ or 'they chose helmets too’. (Real mod. E. 'They also picked out some
helmets and round shields’.) But this is not normal order, and if mod. E. has
lost the trick of putting a word desired to emphasize (for pictorial, emotional
or logical reasons) into prominent first place, without addition of a lot of
little 'empty’ words (as the Chinese say), so much the worse for it. And so
much the better for it the sooner it learns the trick again. And some one must begin the teaching, by
example.
watching this youtube video about victorian haircare wherein the woman testing the products out inhales so much alcohol fumes she gets tipsy and that’s joining lead in everything, corsets, and doctors who cured hysteria with vibrators in “reasons why victorian women loved fainting”
me walking out of my fainting room after getting my back blown out by a medical professional face covered in lead makeup walls emerald green (also containing lead) high on the cocaine i was prescribed for allergies, tightening my corset: archibald darling i am seeing ghosts
goddamnit, not this shit on my dash again
the YouTube video was made by Bernadette Banner, and she got tipsy because she used what turned out to be a much more concentrated form of alcohol than the recipe actually called for (subbing for an ingredient no longer available) in her poorly-ventilated shower. and that was ONE recipe out of probably hundreds floating around at the time. it was hardly representative of a typical Victorian woman’s hair-washing experience, which she freely admits
I shouldn’t even need to retread the whole “corsets were not usually laced tightly enough to even be uncomfortable, let alone make you pass out” thing
lead makeup was no longer in common use by the Victorian era (accounts of “enameling,” or wealthy women wearing incredibly thick, toxic makeup to hide skin imperfections, do appear in newspapers. but those articles acknowledge lead as a poison, just like we do today, and it’s uncertain how much the practice ever actually happened- if at all. period recipes for things called “face enamel” seem to be mostly just skin creams or what we’d now call liquid foundation, and devoid of lead. interestingly, a few involve zinc oxide, which could have had an unintended anti-UV effect. source)
and medically-prescribed orgasms are almost certainly a myth, begun by one Rachel Maines in her 1999 book The Technology of Orgasm
can we just Not, please?
(“but Marzi, it’s only a joke post! lighten up!” my friend, people are definitely believing it in the notes)
they weren’t, at least not more than people do nowadays. it was a literary device used in fiction to show strong emotions. heavily feminine-coded, but men faint a good deal in 19th-century novels, too
the whole “we figured out why Victorian women fainted so much!!!!” trend is like people 150 years from now trying furiously to work out why “so many people in the early 21st century fell in love while working at coffee shops”
I’m going to say what I always say on posts that get dumb-assed about corsets.
I have literally played whole innings of baseball in a corset. You know who else was playing? At least five other women (and a bunch of dudes, but not ones wearing corsets). None of us had any trouble hitting, pitching, fielding, or running the bases. Our corsets fit properly and we wore them as part of researched historical outfits, not to be Scarlet O’Hara lookalikes.
Whatever you “““know”““ about corsets, you’re probably wrong.
Also, about half the participants in that baseball game were in the women’s history class I took that semester and our professor hit the breaks on his lecture one day because he made a similar claim about corsets and a whole row of women rolled our eyes and looked annoyed. To his credit, he let us explain, from personal experience, why corsets aren’t uncomfortable and won’t hurt you, unless you go out of your way to wear them improperly.
I like the coffee shop metaphor and I’m going to throw another one at you. Thinking that all women “““back then”““ wore tight-laced corsets and injured themselves doing it is like thinking that all modern women wear stilettos and assuming that everyone has bad ankles. Yeah, some people did occasionally wear their clothes in a dumb way. They still do! But like… of the women you know who own heels, how many wear four-inch stilettos? How many wear them for daily wear? And of those, how many wear them to do chores?
Tight-laced corsets are stilettos. Few people looked/look like that regularly, and nobody looks like that on a normal day, at home, doing their ordinary thing. You’re learning about history from pop culture, and that’s a bad way to do it.
every time this post comes around, my favorite part is the “I know it’s the Mets” qualifier at the beginning lmao like how baseball that this zillion note posts starts with “sorry for putting this hellteam on your dash, bUT”
Y’all have no idea how hard I was trying not to laugh in class at that poor bird
So funny thing is that Bullsharks can swim up into fresh water and have been known to swim up the Mississippi River.
I believe the two known shark attacks in Missouri were in the late 1800s.
Oh I forgot about Bull sharks!
The New Mexico one was an extremely minor accident between keeper and shark in the Albaquerque Biopark, but since they had to report an injury, they had to report a shark ‘bite’, even if 'Keeper accidentally shoves arm into shark’s mouth’ was more accurate. Both keeper and shark were fine.
“Do not interact if you’re X” “Do not tag this as X” “X people can reblog but DON’T say anything” “Don’t reblog with X content” “X blogs don’t interact”
sir this is a social media website, were you perhaps looking for a diary?
Like mostly I just think this is annoying and weird, but seriously - you are on a public social media site. You have virtually no control over who sees your content or what they do with it, and if you’re uncomfortable with that, you need to not be posting on a public social media site. Take it to your group chat, private discord, diary, whatever - but you don’t get to post something in public and then get mad when it’s public.
